Custom stainless mesh basket for single vessel setup?

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Permalink Reply by Peter Smith on July 14, 2015 at 1:56pm

what about a pot in a pot so that the wort recirculates through the entire grain bed if you pump or sparge

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Ashman on July 15, 2015 at 10:01am

It's an option but I have quite specific size requirements as it has to set a certain height above my element/thermocouple and has to be lower than my inlet port at the top. Is there a disadvantage to having mesh on the sides as well as the bottom? I'm pretty new to all grain brewing so lots to learn!

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Permalink Reply by Sam DT on July 15, 2015 at 11:19am

Generally the fluid will take the path of least resistance which in the case of mesh sides it may well flow straight out the sides and then down rather than going the whole way through the grain bed (which should give you better temperature uniformity and likely better efficiency)..

Have you built your setup yet? If not you could have a flying return (i.e. not attached to the side of the pot) which would make things easier at the top end - this could also then double as your fermentor transfer hose providing you give it a good flush with boiling wort to sterilize it (just make sure it's firmly held in the pot first - nothing like a face full of boiling wort to ruin your day/week/life).

If you are doing a constantly recirculating system I believe it's generally recommended that you put the thermo-couple on the outtake (just put a T fitting inline and add the thermo-couple to the T). That just leaves the out take, elements and whirlpool return. I haven't build my system yet (in the process of ordering parts) but I'm planning on having everything else in the bottom 50mm of my pot with the whirlpool return aiming up on about a 30 degree angle to make sure I'm getting reasonable mixing and hopefully not disturbing the trub cone too much.

So... if you do all that you should be able to slide a pot in fine (providing you have spacer legs on the bottom - or something else to stop it going all the way down) or as I'm planning on doing - putting a false bottom in spaced 50mm  up from the bottom and then just using a regular BIAB bag - I'm assuming the grain bed will settle edge to edge in the pot so should hopefully avoid leakage down the side.

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Permalink Reply by Peter Smith on July 15, 2015 at 4:12pm

my pot has legs..... and used a biab bag in the pot....

laser cut holes in bottom, works of but never got more then about 65% eff in beersmith

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Permalink Reply by Peter Smith on July 15, 2015 at 4:34pm

consider buying a mash tun IMHO

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=igloo+mash+tun&espv=2&biw...

recirculation / vorlauf  with  grain bed as a filter produces better wort I have moved on from biab to seperate mash tun,...

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Ashman on July 15, 2015 at 4:54pm

I don't have the space for a separate mash tun and boil kettle at the moment hence why I want single vessel.

If the grain bed is acting as a filter I assume you don't want to stir it at all during mashing? I have only done one all grain brew so far and did it in a bag on my stove top. I stirred it every 5 or 10 minutes but no idea if I was supposed to.

I couldn't get enough heat into the pot on the stove top which is the main reason I want to go with an electric setup with the element and temp probe mounted in the pot. Then I can also automate the temperature control.

One of the reasons for a basket was so that I can lift the mash out and drain it easily by hooking it over the rim of the pot, rather than having to make up something to hold the grain bag above the pot.

I guess I could get a custom pot made to my required dimensions with perforated bottom rather than a mesh basket.

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Permalink Reply by Sam DT on July 16, 2015 at 11:54am

Regarding mashing stirring won't hurt during he mash phase, should give you even temp and concentration - re-circulation also achieves this. If you do recirculate you just want to make sure it's effectively giving you an even mix i.e. not running down the sides as above or also that your return isn't blasting straight through the grain bed and back out the bottom - you can get fly sparging setups or re-circulation plates to avoid this and effectively get an even flow of liquid through the grain - I'm looking at getting a recirc plate from Chris at banks brewing: http://banksbrewing.blogspot.co.nz.

Once your mash is finished and you're looking to separate the grain and wort you don't want to mess with the grain bed as if you've been recirculating hopefully (I don't know how well this actually works in practice) most of the fine particles will be stuck in the grain bed leaving a nice clear wort. If you're not recirculating you can just run off wort and pour it carefully back across the top until it runs clear (known as vorlauf). If you don't want to shell out for a pump then siring every now and then (I only stir once per mash - some people don't stir at all) and then vorlauf then you should be fine. From what I've read the jury is out regarding the clarity of your post mash wort - means you end up with more crap in your kettle if you don't but apart from that not a biggie.

Regarding draining the lifted bag some people grab a slotted baking tray and just sit it in the top of the pot with the bag on it. I currently go for the lift out and put in a colander over a bucket and tip back into the kettle as it drains method. For double batches I string it up to a beam on my deck.

Hope that helps

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Ashman on July 16, 2015 at 2:21pm

Thanks for more info Sam.

I plan to get a chugger pump to recirculate with. That recirc plate looks really good! Originally I was thinking of having a side entry inlet at the top with camlocks, and using loc-line to recirculate:

https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MashSpa...

The reason for the side entry inlet was so that I could leave the lid on. Now I'm thinking maybe having the inlet through the lid is ok. The recirc plate would need to be spaced far enough from the lid, so I can lift the lid without stopping recirc. Would be good if it were adjustable too to compensate for different batch sizes. With this setup  I can still use a grain bag, as the inlet isn't in the way to tie it over the top.

I might just use a grill to hold the bag off the element.

Do you sparge after you lift your grain bag out? How do you achieve this if it's above the pot? I don't have a separate HLT for heating sparge water so I might not bother sparging in the short term.

After further reading I'm thinking having my outlet dip tube at the rim of the pot will cause channelling. Maybe I need a pickup that will collect the wort evenly across the grain bed. Been looking at this as an option but it's pretty pricey:

https://store.brewpi.com/brewpi-matmill-lauterhexe-kit

There should be enough room to fit it under my element. Problem with that is when I whirl pool after boil it might be in the way and mean my trub doesn't settle in the middle properly.

So many different options when you're trying to do a new build it's hard to make decisions!

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Permalink Reply by Sam DT on July 29, 2015 at 11:39am

Hey, no worries, there's a lot to think about - I've been planning/iterating my design for about six months now, about time to bite the bullet and start building...

Re adjust-ability I think Chris does a clip on adjustable attachment for the recirc plate but not sure of cost.

My current plan is to get a custom round smoker rack from special wire and ask them to add legs around the side to hold it around 50mm off the bottom of the pot. They're quoting $35 which is a sweet deal vs custom laser cutting / perfsheet / second pot. They do 8 mm wire for their larger racks which should hopefully be sturdy enough.

I only currently sparge when I do double batches as my 65L pot is a little short on space so I have to top up and figure I might as well grab a few more % out of my grain. Once I'm up to my larger volume system I probably won't sparge at all as I already get quite good efficiency. I just heat up 6-8 L on my stove and thrown in a little citric acid. I then pour it over the lifted bag (if you hold the jug flat against the top of the bag the water goes into the bag and over the top of the grain and down).

Providing you've got reasonable space say 50 mm under your rack / false bottom I don't thing you should have too much of an issue with channelling. If you were drawing straight from the bed  you would but the space under the false bottom will be free flowing liquid which should spread the draw / pressure difference across the false bottom relatively evenly (that's the theory anyway).

Permalink Reply by Daniel Ashman on July 29, 2015 at 12:36pm

That's strange I asked for a quote from Special Wire for a stainless rack with legs for my 63L pot (420mm diameter) and they quoted $85. Was that for stainless? I also though I could get some hooks made for it so I can hold it near the top of my pot for draining the bag.

Permalink Reply by Sam DT on July 29, 2015 at 1:35pm

No, mine was for nickel coated steel 580mm OD - not as nice as SS but I use a similar cake rack in my gas setup at the moment and haven't had any problems. I figure the mash environment isn't that aggressive.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Ashman on July 15, 2015 at 4:45pm

At this stage I have only mounted my element and outlet with a dip tube that is about 5mm off the bottom. I haven't mounted my temperature sensor yet but plan on having it close to the outlet. I don't want to put it in the outlet itself as I'd still like to be able to measure the temperature during boil (when I'm not recirculating.

I'd rather not have the recirculating input coming through the lid so I can take the lid off and not have to turn my pump off.

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