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A thread where we can discuss cloning a commercial release.

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Well first off Luke, congratulations on making such an amazing beer! I really am blown away every time I'm lucky enough to drink it.

Regarding the Baylands thing, like I say I have done the research and know what (I think) goes into an Epic pale ale...I believe theres even the exact clone recipe on realbeer. So if I weren't to order their 'Epic pale ale clone' I would just look up the recipe and order the exact same ingredients from Baylands. I have crunched the numbers and they aren't making any extra ( ie if I ordered the ingredients its the same as their clone kit)

Regarding the 23L you are potentially missing out on...speaking for myself, there is no way I can afford to buy an Epic pale ale every week, I just don't have the spare $$. Nothing against Epic or their pricing, I just don't have much disposable income!

So I will have to make do with clones and having the odd original every now and then...nothing beats the original.

I see your point tho, its just not that easy a subject.

I guess another way of looking at is, if people are cloning my beer does that mean next time they go to a pub will they buy a Heineken or an Epic pale ale? Easy one for me :-)

I buy about 5 pints in pubs for every bottle at the off license

Luke how in general do you feel about Homebrewers trying to clone your beers, with or without published recipe's?

I dont think theres alot you can do about the recipes that are out in the public domain.just be flattered, that people are trying to re-create your beer really. I would be :)

On a separate note, does anyone want to share any recipes, they believe is in the vein of any certain brew available on the shelf? recipes that aren't in the public domain but people have gotten close either on purpose or by accident.

I don't have a problem with homebrewers doing clones, I think it is flattering. And of course I have no problem since I put the recipe out there, and have even been on forums and helped correct errors where people tried to guess what the recipe was. 

The point I was trying to put out for discussion was homebrew suppliers pulling together the ingredients and selling the package using the Epic Pale Ale label and name. It is kind of like I have endorsed that, since they are displaying it with the Epic logo.

Should I complain that they are selling it with the wrong yeast? What about the condition of the hops? If the hops aren't in good condition and are cheesy, does that reflect badly back on Epic?

I'm sure an IP lawyer would have a reservation or two about the precedent you're setting for the future abuse of the Epic brand by allowing (ie. not contesting) your labeling and name to be included as part of the clone packages.

Epic PA pretty much launched me into all grain - I tried 3 other methods before discovering the CYBI recipe and even though i feel like i nailed it, I have no doubt that I would have bought a lot less Epic and other craft brews over the last 3 or 4 years if I hadn't tried and had success making a beer as good as the one that inspired me.

There's something about making a decent clone of a good craft beer that allows you to enjoy both the ability to make beer as good as (in my eyes anyway!) and also to continue to enjoy buying it - a win-win if you like.

I guess the question is whether others should profit from what is now essentially an open source recipe. Perhaps there's a GPL for beer recipes?

cool I think making a clone is one of the few experiments where you have the control for testing your process and ingredients, the real thing!

Perhaps you could ask the people displaying your name and logo etc to remove it, just like a friendly conversation, not a cease and desist type letter first up.   I think everyone in the biz reads this forum, there cant be an all grain brewer in NZ that doesn't....  we all owe you a lot.

No one so far on here thinks its an unreasonable position.

(Edit: going to rebrew now with a liquid yeast.....  8)

I was far from impressed when I followed that link to the epic recipe / clone, baylands should have at least a disclaimer saying wether the recipe ( and use of the bottle image) has been approved by Luke / epic.
As above, hate to think what the lawyers would say, but allowing it to happen once might set a precedent for others to continue?

On the other hand, what should badlands do? The recipe is out there. Is it better for badlands to sell this as 'the best pale ale recipe ever', even hinting that it's their own recipe rather an acknowledging luke?

How should they acknowledge the brewer without gaining from the beer's brand?

Could be worse, they could be selling epic labels to stick on your home brew bottles!

Thanks though to epic for making a beer I've had much fun trying to emulate. Some have come close, ish, perhaps, some have been a mile away, but most have been very drinkable. Imitation is indeed flattery......

Badlands = spell checked baylands but will let that go!

Maximus IPA

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics

Batch Size (L): 22.00 Wort Size (L): 22.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.15
Anticipated OG: 1.064 Plato: 15.62
Anticipated EBC: 11.4
Anticipated IBU: 149.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 89 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
89.2 4.59 kg. Gladfields Ale Malt NZ, Canterbury 80.07 5
9.3 0.48 kg. Bairds Caramalt 30 UK 73.58 30
1.5 0.08 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 80.07 5

Potential represented as Yield, Fine Grind Dry Basis.


Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
6.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 14.4 90 min.
6.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 12.4 90 min.
4.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 8.5 60 min.
4.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 7.3 60 min.
4.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 6.8 30 min.
4.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 5.8 30 min.
10.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 10.7 10 min.
10.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 9.2 10 min.
8.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 3.6 0 min.
20.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 7.6 0 min.
65.0 g. Amarillo Pellet 8.60 17.8 Dry Hop
10.0 g. Nelson Sauvin Whole 13.20 3.8 Dry Hop
55.0 g. Columbus Pellet 14.20 26.7 Dry Hop
40.0 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.20 15.3 Dry Hop


Amount Name Type Time
0.19 gm Servomyces Other 10 Min.(boil)
0.77 gm Copperflock Fining 10 Min.(boil)


White Labs WLP001 California Ale

From Steve himself so this is the biz...  


Mash Up Recipe- 20 litre

Based on 80% Brewhouse Efficiency and 20 litres final volume.

Approximately 10% evaporation in the boil. Kettle up volume of 22 litres.

OG - 1.058
FG - 1.012
AbV - 6.0%

Salt addition - 3 g CaCl2 to mashing water.
Liquor:Grist ratio - 2.6:1 (13 litres)
Grain bill - 3.35 kg Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter Pale Ale malt and 1.65 kg Gladfield Ale malt (in lieu of Gladfield Ale malt, Vienna or Munich will give a similar character, though will make the finished wort slightly darker).
Mash temperature - 67°C. If milled grains at 20°C, then strike temperature will be around 76°C.

Boil time - 75 minutes (though can be reduced to 60 minutes depending on the evaporation rate of your system).

Hop additions - Based on 35% utilisation for 1st addition (bittering), 23% utilisation for second addition (flavour) and 5% utilisation for flame out/whirlpool addition (aroma) and a 75 minute boil.

Bittering (75 min boil) - Southern Cross 14.8% - 5 g
Flavour (20 min boil) - Southern Cross 14.8% - 4 g
                             - NZ Cascade 9.1% - 9 g
                            - Riwaka 5.6% - 15 g
Aroma (0 min boil) - Southern Cross 14.8% - 10 g
                           - NZ Cascade 9.1% - 20 g
                           - Riwaka 5.6% - 7 g

Add copper finings (for example, 1 g Koppafloc) 10 minutes before boil end.

 - Wyeast 1272 - American Ale Yeast II

Dry hopping regime - Dry hop at approximate PG of 1.015 - 1.020 with:
                             - 30 g Southern Cross
                             - 20 g NZ Cascade
                             - 15 g Riwaka


The real biz


I have done the HBT clone for Firestone Walker Wookey Jack which had help from the brewer. I think It was pretty similar for a balls up of a beer at my end. I mashed too high and lost a ton of efficiency producing a 6% instead of 8% beer. That was despite throwing 3 pkgs US05 at it to make it work...

Brew Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Volume: 7.46 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Volume: 7.46 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.1 %
1.66 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 9.9 %
0.50 lb Cara-Rye (70.0 SRM) Grain 3.0 %
0.50 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 3.0 %
0.50 lb Wheat (Midnight) (550.0 SRM) Grain 3.0 %
0.50 oz Magnum [13.00%] (90 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
1.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (25 min) Hops 24.8 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (25 min) Hops 17.0 IBU
1.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (0 min) Hops -
1.75 oz Citra [12.40%] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (Dry Hop#1 3 days) Hops -remove then add dryhop #2
1.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (Dry Hop#1 3 days) Hops -remove then add dryhop #2
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (Dry Hop #2 4 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (Dry Hop #2 4 days) Hops -

1 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [Starter 2500 ml]

Mash @ 145-148 for 60 min
Increase to 155 for 10 min, then sparge

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.080 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Color: 39.6 SRM
Bitterness: 61.8 IBU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 8.6 %

Ferment at ~62 for 10 days.

8Wired iStout

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/708  listern in for the full scoop


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